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Channel 3 North East and Carlton Central/Westcountry

Why dual branding for one and not the other? (March 2014)

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MA
martin890
It would have been far easier for the people in Gas street just to make one single set of promos with Carlton name for all areas?


it was all itv1 promo's for local stuff for central westcountry london weekday and HTV Wales and west
CW
cwathen Founding member

The real reason HTV was not re-branded into carlton was because their were 2 many carlton own regions useding the carlton name so if that happen the carlton name would have been used alongside LWT to almost half of england and wales

According to who? I don't recall there being some kind of cap on how many regions could trade under one brand, especially not that late, it was only a couple of years until the national rebranding.
Last edited by cwathen on 29 March 2014 6:47pm
MK
Mr Kite
Well, strictly speaking, the cap was 1 but Carlton happily ignored that without consequence, as we've already established.
JO
Jonny
The ITC's response was merely 'oh, that's a shame' in relation to Central and Westcountry.

I guess I hadn't really thought about it before but I like the world domination failure theory as the reason why they left HTV alone. It was probably so obvious what was to come by that point that all enthusiasm for painting Carlton on things was lost.
VM
VMPhil
Jonny posted:
The ITC's response was merely 'oh, that's a shame' in relation to Central and Westcountry.

I guess I hadn't really thought about it before but I like the world domination failure theory as the reason why they left HTV alone. It was probably so obvious what was to come by that point that all enthusiasm for painting Carlton on things was lost.

However did they go as far as putting the Carlton ident animations on the front of the HTV idents whilst retaining the spinning hearts endcap/animation, so there must have been some effort to introduce the branding there.
MK
Mr Kite
Jonny posted:
The ITC's response was merely 'oh, that's a shame' in relation to Central and Westcountry.

I guess I hadn't really thought about it before but I like the world domination failure theory as the reason why they left HTV alone. It was probably so obvious what was to come by that point that all enthusiasm for painting Carlton on things was lost.


I think that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

As for the ident animations, Carlton's were far superior to the official network network ones, so they may as well have adapted them for HTV. Updating the idents is very different prospect to rebranding the station in its entirety.
MA
martin890
By the way, I know as fact that the reason Carlton didn't rebrand HTV is because they were given a clear heads up by the Welsh Assembly that they would kick off very publicly about any loss of identity. It's also the reason that it became ITV1 Wales when the regional names went.


I'm not so sure this was the one and only factor. I do believe that the Welsh Government would have, no doubt, had something to say about it but broadcasting is ultimately a UK Government competence. I think if that was all that was stopping Carlton, they'd have not thought twice of rebranding HTV West whilst leaving HTV Wales alone. Like I said further up, regarding C3NE, ITV was changing so fast during this period. Even mid-2000 was very different to Autumn 1999. In the mid to late 90s, it was quite clear that Carlton wanted to make a name for itself, so it could be as famous and highly regarded as the likes of Granada, Thames and even, maybe, the BBC. Despite being established in London as a publisher-broadcaster, it soon used Central to try and make itself a name as a production company too. This was semi-successful as I vividly remember newspapers occassionally referring to Carlton as a Midlands-based company, especially once Lenton Lane became Carlton Studios.

It's just a theory on my part but what I think happened in 1999 was that the UNM merger was on the cards. If that went through, with Meridian included, then the 'cold war' for ITV dominance would've been essentially over, with the winner being this large London-based media agglomerate which owned newspapers as well as all the ITV network south of Crewe, bar, weirdly and somewhat ironically, London at the weekends. This would've, within a few short years at most, have either merged with GMG but being the senior partner as opposed to junior, or just took them over outright. I think the grand plan was that the TV side of this media empire would've been branded Carlton ,eventually replacing ITV as the network Channel 3 brand. The merger fell through and by July 2000, UMN had sold its ITV franchises to GMG. GMG having to surrender HTV to Carlton was small comfort for Carlton. GMG was now larger and had the trump card, the lucrative Meridian franchise. Carlton had lost and they knew it. At this point, it was only a matter of time before the two became one, be it by takeover or merger but the network was never going to be called Carlton now. The dream was over and the rebrand would've been a waste of time. Add to this that the rebranding of Central and Westcountry hardly endeared them to anyone in those areas who cared to take notice. This also meant a Carlton rebrand was anticipated in Wales and the West and so there was a small scale campaign from the beginning to resist any rebrand attempt. I believe a few MPs and AMs in the area became vocal about the prospect.

The ITV1 Wales branding is a case in point really. This was created because the continuity announcers were being retained and they didn't want to appear less Welsh than the BBC in that part of the world. The folks in HTV West were just like any other group of marauding English barstewards, so off to Old London Town they were sent. Carlton would've done the same thing, brand-wise, if it had made sense in 2000. Any special treatment required for the Welsh would probably not have saved HTV West from any planned rebrand.


The real reason HTV was not re-branded into carlton was because their were 2 many carlton own regions useding the carlton name so if that happen the carlton name would have been used alongside LWT to almost half of england and wales

According to who? I don't recall there being some kind of cap on how many regions could trade under one brand, especially not that late, it was only a couple of years until the national rebranding.


this is the reason why HTV did not became carlton

http://iolfree.ie/~icdg/news_230101b.htm
WH
Whataday Founding member
By the way, I know as fact that the reason Carlton didn't rebrand HTV is because they were given a clear heads up by the Welsh Assembly that they would kick off very publicly about any loss of identity. It's also the reason that it became ITV1 Wales when the regional names went.


I'm not so sure this was the one and only factor. I do believe that the Welsh Government would have, no doubt, had something to say about it but broadcasting is ultimately a UK Government competence. I think if that was all that was stopping Carlton, they'd have not thought twice of rebranding HTV West whilst leaving HTV Wales alone.



At the time of the Carlton takeover, there were serious conversations going on within the Welsh Assembly about devolving broadcasting, and the last thing Carlton wanted was to rock the boat. Spinning off HTV Wales as its own region would have only worked in the assembly's favour. By the time HTV became ITV1, things had moved on politically and ITV had already consolidated.

I know this as fact because about six months ago I had a conversation with someone that was senior at HTV at the time.
ETP1 Forever and Jonny gave kudos
MK
Mr Kite
Still not convinced. For a start, it still does not explain why HTV West was also let off. Also, how senior are we talking? I think the only people who know why for sure are those who were present at the Carlton boardroom meetings in London around the time of the takeover. It's likely that no one at HTV was privy to what was said when this was discussed and ruled out. Another thing I'd flag up is the idea that broadcasting would be devolved to Wales. Devolving broadcasting to regional entities is almost unknown throughout the world, even in federations such as the US, Germany and Switzerland (note that the UK's a unitary state). Belgium's the only exception that I'm aware of and Belgium's pretty disfunctional and so an exceptional case. There was never any realistic prospect of broadcasting being devolved to Wales, especially considering its powers, which are still comparable to counties or even municipalities in some other less-centralised countries, was even more modest back in 2000. The assembly didn't even have powers to pass primary legislation in those days. Certainly Scotland would've obtained such responsibilities before Wales ever would and even there, I don't see it ever happening unless it becomes independent. Same with Wales.
Last edited by Mr Kite on 29 March 2014 3:25pm - 2 times in total
WH
Whataday Founding member
If I said how senior it would give it away, but needless to say I trust the information 100%. Irrelevant of the likelihood of it occurring, no broadcaster wants to open up conversations like that.

As for only a few key people knowing things when decisions are made... you obviously don't know the industry well! Very Happy
TH
Thinker
Devolving broadcasting to regional entities is almost unknown throughout the world, even in federations such as the US, Germany and Switzerland.


Broadcasting is constitutionally devolved in Germany. The federal government has no say at all and all broadcasters are licensed by the different states.

I don't see the idea of devolving broadcasting being that far-fetched. If devolution had happened fifty years earlier, it might well have been a reality today. But the time to do that has probably passed and now it is hard to see what it would achieve.
MK
Mr Kite
As for only a few key people knowing things when decisions are made... you obviously don't know the industry well! Very Happy


I'm sure stuff obviously gets out. I'd be surprised if it didn't but it'll always be subject to distortion, the Chinese Whispers effect, if you will. Unless someone who was properly at the top of the Carlton empire writes a book, perhaps called 'Carlton - the day the dream died', it'll always be theory and rumours. Even then, the person in question may not necessarily choose to tell us the full story. I still think HTV West being also spared (despite being English and unspecial) points to the Welsh exceptionalism argument not being the cause - or at least, not being the sole cause; there's every chance it was a contributing factor that didn't exactly help the case for a rebrand. The devolved broadcasting thing would be surprising considering what little powers the assembly had at the time. Some nationalists and devolvists may well have been arguing for it but it didn't make it likely to happen. I still don't think it's likely to happen now. Broadcasting is generally governed on a national level for logistical reasons such as having to come to arrangements with foreign governments as airwaves know no political borders and things like allocating broadcasting channels so they don't knock out neighbouring channels or airwaves used for other uses. I'll have to look into the situation in Germany that Thinker mentions. I was aware that Germany had regional licenses but then the US has an even more local system which is a federal responsibility. Germany also has nationwide TV channels so I'd be curious to know how it works over there.

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