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Are there too many channels?

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RI
Riaz
Every TV channel is recognised, whether it is registered to BARB or not. So, does this mean you would force every TV channel that broadcasts from a satellite that can be picked up in this country, to register to BARB? If not, then why are you expecting channels that don't register with BARB to get even basic information about viewing figures, when getting any kind of detailed information requires registration? If these channels want the information, they should pay for it, like the others do.


It's difficult to tell exactly how many people watch TV channels not registered with BARB but one should not systematically assume that numbers are completely insignificant. The owners of such channels might not see any reason to register with BARB because they have their own system of market research. Some of these channels are foreign and officially do not broadcast in the UK but can still be received. Registering with BARB could bring such channels under the wrath of Ofcom when it comes to matters like decency and impartiality.
NG
noggin Founding member
Riaz posted:
Registering with BARB could bring such channels under the wrath of Ofcom when it comes to matters like decency and impartiality.


What absolute rubbish. The rules of Ofcom regulation are very clear. Ofcom govern channels licensed in the UK. That has nothing to do with whether the channel is viewed in the UK or available in the UK or not. If you are licensed in the UK - which is required to operate from here - then you are regulated. If you are operating from elsewhere in Europe, then you are not usually regulated by Ofcom.

However if you are operating a service that should be Ofcom licensed without a licence, then you are breaking the law...

Ofcom actually regulate lots of channels that aren't available in the UK - because they are uplinked and/or played out from here, and are licensed here. TV3 in Sweden is one example. They are Ofcom regulated and have to use the UK "P" Product Placement logo as a result. It's a satellite and terrestrial channel in Sweden, but because it is licensed in the UK (and originates here) it is Ofcom regulated, rather than being regulated by the Swedish authorities.

You may be surprised how many services are Ofcom licensed - including many that aren't aimed at the UK at all : http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/radiolicensing/html/tv/cs/cabandsat-main.htm

Update : Here are the relevant reasons to be Ofcom licensed if you operate a channel : http://licensing.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/tv/tlcs/tlcs_guidance.pdf

Quote:
Jurisdiction of the applicant
4.5 The Audiovisual Media Services Directive24 provides for freedom of retransmission and reception for television services within the European Economic Area. A service which is licensed (or otherwise appropriately authorised) in one Member State does not need separate licensing in any other Member State. Dual licensing is not permitted.

4.6 Ofcom can only license a service if the provider of that service (“the broadcaster”) falls into the UK’s jurisdiction as determined by the criteria set out in Article 2 of the Audiovisual Media Services Directive. Applicants should also have regard to the European Convention on Transfrontier Broadcasting and its amending Protocol (ETS132 and ETS171).
4.7 The criteria set out in Article 2 of the Audiovisual Media Services Directive state that the broadcaster may fall into the UK’s jurisdiction in the following circumstances:
• one of the primary establishment criteria applies (e.g. the broadcaster has its head office in the UK and the editorial decisions about the service are taken in the UK); or
• one of the subsidiary technical criteria applies (e.g. the broadcaster uses a satellite uplink situated in the UK). Please note that these criteria are applicable only if none of the primary establishment criteria apply; or
• the broadcaster is established in the UK in accordance with Articles 49 to 55 of the Treaty establishing the European Community. Please note that this is a subsidiary establishment criterion and is only applicable if neither the primary establishment criteria or subsidiary technical criteria are met.
4.8 Further details about these criteria are set out below including a flowchart in Figure 1 on page 14 to assist you in determining under which jurisdiction your proposed service falls.
Primary establishment criteria
4.9 The Audiovisual Media Services Directive states that a broadcaster is established in a Member State (i.e. falls into its jurisdiction) in the following circumstances:
• If a broadcaster has its head office in that Member State and the editorial decisions about programme schedules are taken in that Member State.
• If a broadcaster has its head office in one Member State but editorial decisions on programme schedules are taken in another Member State, it will be considered to be established in the Member State where a significant part of the workforce operates.
• If a significant part of the workforce operates in each of those Member States, the broadcaster will be considered to be established in the Member State where it has its head office.
• If a significant part of the workforce operates in neither the Member State where the editorial decisions about programme schedules are taken, nor the Member State where the applicant has its head office, the broadcaster will be considered to be established in the Member State where it first began broadcasting lawfully, provided that it maintains a stable and effective link with the economy of that Member State.
• If a broadcaster has its head office in a Member State but decisions on programme schedules are taken in a third country, or vice-versa, it will be considered to be established in the Member State concerned, provided that a significant part of the workforce operates in that Member State.
12
Subsidiary technical criteria
4.10 If the primary establishment criteria do not apply, broadcasters may still fall into the jurisdiction of a Member State in the following circumstances:
• If a broadcaster uses a satellite uplink situated in that Member State. If the service is uplinked from more than one Member State, the broadcaster will fall under the jurisdiction of the Member State where the first established uplink is located. However, if the oldest uplink relates to a satellite without a footprint focused on Europe, while the more recent one relates to a satellite which does, the more recent one will be taken into consideration when determining the jurisdiction.
• If a broadcaster does not use a satellite uplink situated in that Member State, but does use satellite capacity relating to that Member State. This subsidiary criterion will apply if jurisdiction of any Member State cannot be established under the “satellite uplink” criterion referred to above.
4.11 If neither the primary or subsidiary technical criteria enable the jurisdiction of a particular service to be determined, the relevant Member State will be where the broadcaster is established within the meaning of Articles 49 to 55 of the Treaty establishing the European Community.
4.12 Broadcasts intended exclusively for reception in countries that are not signatories of the Audiovisual Media Services Directive and which are not received directly or indirectly by the public in one or more Member States are not normally licensable by Ofcom.
Last edited by noggin on 20 March 2016 1:37pm - 4 times in total
BR
Brekkie
It is well known TV3 is regulated here but presumably they have to be licenced in Sweden to get the EPG slot and presumably broadcast from Sweden masts?
NG
noggin Founding member
It is well known TV3 is regulated here but presumably they have to be licenced in Sweden to get the EPG slot and presumably broadcast from Sweden masts?


Not sure about EPG access, but AIUI rule 4.5 holds - you can't be dual licensed, so terrestrial TV3 Sweden is licensed by Ofcom not the Swedish regulators. The Swedish regulators certainly push any complaints Ofcom's way : http://www.radioochtv.se/att-anmala/anmal-program/vad-kan-anmalas/ This may also be complicated by the fact that there are very few FTA services on terrestrial in Sweden, with most channels (including the TV3 stuff) encrypted and part of the Boxer pay-TV platform.

(The same is true of advertising on TV3 - that is regulated in the UK so complaints about adverts aired are pushed towards the ASA.)

Quote:

Sändningsformer som inte granskas
Utländska programföretag omfattas inte av svenska regler. Det innebär att även om du kan se sändningen i Sverige så får vi inte granska innehållet. De utländska företagen ska normalt sett följa lagen i det land som de är etablerade.

Några exempel på kanaler som inte omfattas av svenska regler är:

Kanalerna TV3, TV6, TV8 och TV10 som sänds av Modern Times Group MTG Ltd, etablerat i Storbritannien.
Kanal 5 och Kanal 9, som sänds av det brittiska bolaget Discovery Networks Northern Europe Limited.
Vill du anmäla ett program i dessa kanaler ska du vända dig direkt till vår motsvarande myndighet i det aktuella landet. Gäller det exempelvis Storbritannien kontaktar du myndigheten Ofcom och gäller det Nederländerna kontaktar du Commissariaat voor de Media.

Anmäla program till Ofcom och ASA
Om du vill anmäla ett program som sänts i någon av kanalerna TV3, TV6, TV8, TV10, Kanal 5 eller Kanal 9 måste du vända dig direkt till den brittiska myndigheten Ofcom (Office of Communication). En sådan anmälan måste ha kommit in inom 20 dagar efter sändningstillfället. Gäller anmälan tv-reklam lägger Ofcom över ärendet till ASA (Advertising Standards Authority), som granskar reklam i media i Storbritannien. Anmälningar mot brittiska programföretag som kommer in till oss vidarebefordrar vi, enligt en överenskommelse, till Ofcom. I de fall Ofcom granskar programmet rapporterar myndigheten resultatet till oss.


Quote:

English google translate with some tweaking :
Foreign broadcasters are not covered by the Swedish rules. This means that although you can see the broadcast in Sweden, so we can not review the content. The foreign companies will normally follow the law of the country in which they are established.

Some examples of channels that are not covered by the Swedish rules are:

TV3, TV6, TV8 and TV10 broadcast by Modern Times Group Ltd., established in the UK.
Channel 5 and Channel 9, which is sent by the British company Discovery Networks Northern Europe Limited.

To submit a complaint about these channels, you must apply directly to our counterpart in that country. Applies to the UK, for example, contact the authority Ofcom and applies to the Netherlands, contact the Commissariaat voor de Media.

If you want to complain about a program broadcast on any of the channels TV3, TV6, TV8, TV10, Channel 5 and Channel 9, you have to turn directly to the UK authority Ofcom (Office of Communications). Such notification must be received within 20 days of broadcast. Concerning television commercials Ofcom will hand over the case to the ASA (Advertising Standards Authority), which examines advertising in the media in the UK. Complaints against British broadcaster who comes to us, we will forward, according to an agreement to Ofcom. In cases Ofcom examines the program reports the Authority the results to us.



So the Swedish regulator will forward complaints about UK licensed services, like TV3, to Ofcom, and then return the Ofcom report to the complainant.

This all stems from Swedish pay-TV services launching outside Sweden to avoid Sweden's much tighter advertising legislation.
Last edited by noggin on 20 March 2016 1:53pm - 3 times in total
RI
Riaz
What absolute rubbish. The rules of Ofcom regulation are very clear. Ofcom govern channels licensed in the UK. That has nothing to do with whether the channel is viewed in the UK or available in the UK or not. If you are licensed in the UK - which is required to operate from here - then you are regulated. If you are operating from elsewhere in Europe, then you are not usually regulated by Ofcom.


Is it possible to register a TV channel with BARB if it is not already registered with Ofcom?
CI
cityprod
Riaz posted:
Every TV channel is recognised, whether it is registered to BARB or not. So, does this mean you would force every TV channel that broadcasts from a satellite that can be picked up in this country, to register to BARB? If not, then why are you expecting channels that don't register with BARB to get even basic information about viewing figures, when getting any kind of detailed information requires registration? If these channels want the information, they should pay for it, like the others do.


It's difficult to tell exactly how many people watch TV channels not registered with BARB but one should not systematically assume that numbers are completely insignificant.


Where did I say anything about the size of the viewing figures themselves? I'm talking about 'basic information' the kind the public gets about the BARB registered channels, versus the kind of detailed information that is available to the channels that register with BARB. If channels are unwilling or unable to pay, for whatever reason, why should they have access to even the kind of basic information that we the public get about the BARB registered channels? If they can't or won't pay for it, for whatever reason, then it should just be lumped together in the "Others" section. That only seems fair to me.

Quote:
Registering with BARB could bring such channels under the wrath of Ofcom when it comes to matters like decency and impartiality.


OFCOM and BARB have no relationship to each other. OFCOM is owned by the British Government. BARB is owned by the broadcasters.
NG
noggin Founding member
Riaz posted:
What absolute rubbish. The rules of Ofcom regulation are very clear. Ofcom govern channels licensed in the UK. That has nothing to do with whether the channel is viewed in the UK or available in the UK or not. If you are licensed in the UK - which is required to operate from here - then you are regulated. If you are operating from elsewhere in Europe, then you are not usually regulated by Ofcom.


Is it possible to register a TV channel with BARB if it is not already registered with Ofcom?


Can you give any examples of channels that aren't Ofcom licensed that would/should/could be considered under BARB ratings (i.e. are watched in the UK on Sky, Virgin, Freesat, Freeview or other platforms), or is this a purely hypothetical question?

I'm trying to think of non-Ofcom licensed channels - there are some that are primarily based in the Netherlands, but not sure if they license their UK operations there or in the UK.
RI
Riaz
Can you give any examples of channels that aren't Ofcom licensed that would/should/could be considered under BARB ratings (i.e. are watched in the UK on Sky, Virgin, Freesat, Freeview or other platforms), or is this a purely hypothetical question?

I'm trying to think of non-Ofcom licensed channels - there are some that are primarily based in the Netherlands, but not sure if they license their UK operations there or in the UK.


Obviously you have no knowledge about the various non-EU satellite channels receivable in Britain.
NG
noggin Founding member
Riaz posted:
Can you give any examples of channels that aren't Ofcom licensed that would/should/could be considered under BARB ratings (i.e. are watched in the UK on Sky, Virgin, Freesat, Freeview or other platforms), or is this a purely hypothetical question?

I'm trying to think of non-Ofcom licensed channels - there are some that are primarily based in the Netherlands, but not sure if they license their UK operations there or in the UK.


Obviously you have no knowledge about the various non-EU satellite channels receivable in Britain.


As someone who has had a motorised satellite dish since 1989, I'm very aware of the number of channels that can be received in the UK that may not originate in the EU... (I've been involved in satellite viewing for a large number of years. I reprogrammed BSB receivers from D-MAC to D2-MAC to let me watch TV Sat and TDF1 DBS experimental stuff in the early 90s...) Probably not a good idea to assume what I have knowledge of in the TV industry.

Please re-read my original question...

Quote:
(i.e. are watched in the UK on Sky, Virgin, Freesat, Freeview or other platforms)


I suspect the largest audiences that are not BARB recorded (AFAIK) and are on non-UK operated platforms, are for channels popular with Polish, Romanian and other EU member countries' citizens with large populations working in the UK. (Italian, French and German channels similarly)

There are also likely to be some viewing of channels aimed at a middle east audience that get some viewing in the UK (and not just for football) and may originate outside the EU (and may not be licensed by Ofcom or any other EU member state, or not-quite EU members like Norway or Switzerland)

However non-UK channels are probably of little interest to BARB as they aren't part of the UK advertising area - and BARB is at least partially there to measure UK viewing audiences to set levels of expenditure for UK TV advertising.
Last edited by noggin on 20 March 2016 3:23pm - 4 times in total
BA
bilky asko
I'm still laughing at the bloody ridiculous suggestion of a BARB sample size of 1-5 million households.
Brekkie, Inspector Sands and London Lite gave kudos
NG
noggin Founding member
I'm still laughing at the bloody ridiculous suggestion of a BARB sample size of 1-5 million households.


Had missed that. What planet?!

Next people will suggest that BARB figures are entirely sourced from the data that Sky+, Tivo etc. boxes record. (Which are useful for some purposes - but since they don't record who is watching and how many people are watching - that data is not that useful for BARB purposes...)
IS
Inspector Sands
Riaz posted:
It's difficult to tell exactly how many people watch TV channels not registered with BARB but one should not systematically assume that numbers are completely insignificant.

Yes you can. BARB houses register who is watching TV as well as what channel they're watching. If someone is watching a channel that isn't registered it will still still be part of the total share of viewing.


If there were significant numbers of people watching channels not registered to BARB then as a whole they would have higher % share in the figures. Looking at the ratings for the last week of Feb, 'other channels' had a share of 1.06% with 2.8 million viewers.

That's slightly more viewers/share than Dave, but of course it's divided between lots of channels
Last edited by Inspector Sands on 20 March 2016 4:15pm - 2 times in total

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