Scottish pres discussion Thread

When I say ideal world, I'm talking about what the realistic best case scenario now is... not what I necessarily want!

The traditional ITV network model clearly is on borrowed time now. The idea of different companies (which don't necessarily see eye to eye) delivering fundamentally the same schedule in different areas belongs in the old world.

ITVplc, rightly or wrongly, believes it is subsidising STV and UTV heavily. It is angry that some of it's programmes are not being seen in Scotland as this indirectly harms the company. It believes its brand is damaged in the sense that it is not a universal brand across the UK.

It seems highly unlikely that they'll want to keep their PSB licences on the current terms. They want to broadcast across the whole of the UK. I'm sure they'd gladly lose DTT space on relays if it meant gaining Scotland and Northern Ireland.

It seems the options are...

*ITVplc buys STV and simply turns it into ITV1 Scotland with minimum local output.

*Ofcom decides to have a UK-wide C3 licence. (Highly unlikely.)

*ITVplc hands back its Channel 3 licences and leaves STV and Ulster without a network schedule. (Even if somebody else took over the licences, it would not be the ITV network schedule we know and - er - love.)

It strikes me the status quo, or a modified version of it, is not an option as clearly ITVplc doesn't want it.

In that case, the best option is for STV to find its own destiny and find a future of its own - rather than be forced into one by others. None of this excuses the short term inconvenience to some viewers which dropping network favourites causes but long term I see their game.

What made ITV a brilliant model was that there was UK wide distribution of talent, ideas and production bases, and a correspondingly wide contribution to the network from across the country, albeit with the big 5 producing the lion's share.

Explain to me how ITV are being "damaged" by STV's opt out? Their branding is nowhere to be seen on channel 3 here, and never has been. Back in the late 80s there was a push to homogenise the network but STV went their own way, used their own branding and paid their contribution to the network as they always had.

I don't accept that ITV are "subsidising" STV or UTV. Both the smaller independents pay their fees for what they broadcast. The difference is that the remaining 12(?) regions are now one company, so they have to pay a corresponding cost per region. By my hasty calculations they will have to pay 12 times as much as STV. Right?

On the face of it, "12 times as much" would make someone with flawed logic conclude that the smaller companies are being subsidised - however, bear in mind that the potential money to be made in advertising is still there for those 12 regions, so its right and proper that each region should pay for the programming they show.

TV advertising isn't the golden goose anymore, and everyone is suffering - yet STV are coining it in for their top rating 5 o'clock hour. That tells me that companies will spend money to advertise in successful markets, and STV are coming up with the goods for the local audience.

As to the future - I didn't like any of the options - but part of me fears that ITV will drop the PSB franchises and head digital only. And if they do they will be in the same category as Virgin, Sky and Living.

And hell mend them if they do - and god help STV, to be honest.

But if it does happen, I can tell you right now that STV won't factor in the decision - it will be about becoming a commercial success for their shareholders.

Because that's all they really care about, of course.

Yet last year itv moaned that stv owned them money and should cough up, this year stv stop buy the programmes, stop this happening ( it could well be the case) and there still moaning. it clear now there can;t be subsidising stv now as there not take all there shows.


Really how, we don;t get ITV1 branding, its all STV this and that, I dare say stv is save the itv name up here and have stop itv name getting more rotten. yes the bill gone out the window but the FORMAT has change for the show and there is mixed reviews about this.

ITV has one problem its all english english english, its no good to a Scottish people and the scotland as a whole.

maybe If itv came up with some better programmes instead of relying on Britain got dancing x factor star idols on ice, then maybe we would be on about this.

maybe ITV should speak with STV about making more programmes for them, how about making more programmes for leeds and manchester, instead of london etc.

Gavin,
The Hour gets an audience share of 10-12pc. It often gets fewer viewers than the programmes on BBC1, BBC2 and C4 at the same time. Its audience share is broadly speaking in line with the programme on ITV1 network at the time plus or minus a couple of points - somedays more, somedays less.

Successful? Depends how you measure it, Enjoyed? I'm sure it is. But it isn't getting huge ratings I'm afraid. I agree STV are doing a good job of targetting local advertisers and providing them with opportunities though.

I work in the television industry and have access to the overnight figures. I deliberately do no use my real name or say who I am because it would prevent me from saying certain things...

Well it would be interesting to have access to those figures, and I'm obliged you have shared them.

But as you say, there are different ways to measure - and despite having appeared on Goldenballs I didn't watch it often, and now find myself walking briskly home to catch as much as I can of the Hour.

And, do you know, I did find myself buying a bottle of Barr's American Cream Soda last week - around 20 years since I bought the last one - so local ads for local people works, parochial though I may sound.

In any event, you're basically telling me that a local show is largely comparable with the network output of BBC, ITV and 4 at that time, so I've no reason to be concerned, and I'm sure STV don't.

Not so bad when you put it that way, is it?

I wonder if the viewing figure go up on a Friday, do you think stv will broadcast last 4 un-air of Kingdom?

The bill is now saying "Monday son ITV3"

ITV's franchises are in England & Wales, apart from that scrag end in Southern Scotland, so of course ITV produce predominantly English (and Welsh) orientated programmes.

I can't believe this debate is still going on.

Until around 6 years ago, STV were the only ITV region with the largest amount of opt-outs, regularly pulling from ITV after the news and not rejoining until the ITV Morning News at 5.30. On top of that they used to show Home and Away at 6 instead of 5.05 when it was shown on ITV and they also moved Emmerdale. Their schedule was quite different back then.

Compared to then, STV's schedule is near enough like for like what is shown on ITV and people are worried that STV are taking too much away from the Scottish people.

It was only a few years ago people were saying that STV should be bought out by ITV as they weren't any different to them, bar the horrible Celebrity idents and the local news. Now they're slowly taking control of their schedule and they get slated for that too. Can they actually do anything right?

In Scotland, the ITV model hasn't changed, apart from the merger of STV and Grampian, however, it is still an ITV region. I think the execs of ITV have completely forgotten about what their company was based on in the first instance.

Lastly, with regards to some prime time shows being pulled, I imagine STV are being prudent and deciding to show these later when ITV sells the rights to other broadcasters at cheaper prices. I can't see anything wrong with that.

As ever people are clouding the debate by confusing the Channel 3 Network with the rather stupidly named Granada/Carlton conglomerate 'ITV plc'.

The Channel 3 model for Scotland died at the same time as it did for England. It never existed elsewhere, although Wales had a two-company idea which proved unstustainable after a few years, and they never tried anything other than a single company for Northern Ireland.

Scotland's C3 franchises have merged and so have those in England. The Scottish 'C3 Executives' had exactly the same plans as those in England....they just ran out of money for another franchise when it came to UTV.

Please don't start a moral debate, SOL, about upholding some sort of regional identity for the old franchises in Scotland! Both STV and ITV are as self-centred and commercially-minded as each other!

Despite Grade's ramblings this week, I actually don't think that ITVplc give two hoots whether or not STV are showing The Bill on their main channel, as it simply means better ratings for the ITV3 repeat broadcasts: the advertising revenue of which they are the sole beneficiary.

Presumably within the C3 Network somebody still negotiates fees for broadcasting programmes from different companies, the same way as it was done by ITV Network Ltd back in the day. If STV don't like the cost then they don't broadcast those programmes on offer and they make/show their own. If people don't like the alternative drivel and tat, then they'll switch off just the same.

Even during the heyday of the old ITV Network, STV/Grampian were never major network providers. ATV, Granada, LWT, Thames and Yorkshire provided the bulk of programming for everywhere in the UK. STV/Grampian have always had to pay a contribution for being a net recipient. It's no different now!

I don't get your point.

You say it's no different in Scotland, but I would argue that solely by the fact that many people I know still refer to the channel as STV, and is that not evidence that things remain as is for many people in Scotland? If you are going to say it has been dead in Scotland as in England, please back it up with evidence.

I agree that STV are primarily looking for what makes them the most profit, but that is business sense. I don't see what is different from the points I made above

If STV could make some more Scottish drama or other programmers like high times then I would say most people would not notice